IMMIGRATION: WHO'S MORE LIBERAL?

One of the most important questions about the debate, for all those people out there who believe that freedom of migration is a human right, that we should not discriminate against anyone on the basis of place of birth, that our iniquitous policies create a system of world apartheid that mocks our Declaration of Independence's claim that "all men are created equal," that immigration restrictions are not laws but merely violence and that "illegal immigrants" are not lawbreakers but admirable heirs to a long and glorious tradition of civil disobedience which has been an essential part of the advance of liberty over the past 300 years, is which candidate is more liberal on immigration. Here's what they said; maybe comments later; for now, judge for yourself...

UPDATE: Comments have been inserted.

SCHIEFFER: Let's go to a new question, Mr. President.

I got more e-mail this week on this question than any other question. And it is about immigration.

I'm told that at least 8,000 people cross our borders illegally every day. Some people believe this is a security issue, as you know. Some believe it's an economic issue. Some see it as a human-rights issue.

How do you see it? And what we need to do about it?

BUSH: I see it as a serious problem. I see it as a security issue, I see it as an economic issue, and I see it as a human-rights issue.

We're increasing the border security of the United States. We've got 1,000 more Border Patrol agents on the southern border.

Bad.

We're using new equipment. We're using unmanned vehicles to spot people coming across.

Worse. Scary, in fact. If you have humans doing it, their consciences can get in the way of being too repressive.

And we'll continue to do so over the next four years. It's a subject I'm very familiar with. After all, I was a border governor for a while.

Many people are coming to this country for economic reasons. They're coming here to work. If you can make 50 cents in the heart of Mexico, for example, or make $5 here in America, $5.15, you're going to come here if you're worth your salt, if you want to put food on the table for your families. And that's what's happening.

Oh yeah! "If you're worth your salt." Bush seems to be approving of illegal immigration here! He's almost suggesting that people who stay in Mexico earning 50 cents an hour are unenterprising bums!

And so in order to take pressure off the borders, in order to make the borders more secure, I believe there ought to be a temporary worker card that allows a willing worker and a willing employer to mate up, so long as there's not an American willing to do that job, to join up in order to be able to fulfill the employers' needs.

Very good! My only worry is the clause "so long as there's not an American willing to do that job." Americans' willingness to do the job depends on the wage. If you offer a high enough wage, you can probably get at least someone to do almost anything. On the other hand, you can always get Americans to turn down a job by pushing the wage low enough.

That has the benefit of making sure our employers aren't breaking the law as they try to fill their workforce needs.

Very interesting. If employers are breaking the law, don't enforce the law, change the law. The logic is suspect, but the conclusion is deliciously laissez-faire.

It makes sure that the people coming across the border are humanely treated, that they're not kept in the shadows of our society, that they're able to go back and forth to see their families.

Bush understands the human issues here. He really cares. Good man.

See, the card, it'll have a period of time attached to it.

The "time period" suggests that people will be forced out, which is somewhat illiberal and perhaps not credible. But this is a huge step in the right direction.

It also means it takes pressure off the border. If somebody is coming here to work with a card, it means they're not going to have to sneak across the border. It means our border patrol will be more likely to be able to focus on doing their job.

Which is? What is the border patrol's job? To prevent terrorists from infiltrating the country? Or to protect American workers from low-wage immigrant competition? Bush almost seems to be implying that the border patrol's function is strictly national-security-related. If so... excellent!

Now, it's very important for our citizens to also know that I don't believe we ought to have amnesty.

I agree, no amnesty. Amnesty implies that immigrating without a visa is a crime. I believe it is an exercise of one's rights. I think we should consider granting amnesty to those who use violence to prevent people from exercising those rights, but first we need to stop them from doing so.

I don't think we ought to reward illegal behavior. There are plenty of people standing in line to become a citizen. And we ought not to crowd these people ahead of them in line.

I don't quite follow the logic here. Why should anyone "worth his salt" stay in Mexico earning 50 cents an hour when he could be earning $5.15-- just because someone he's never met is waiting for a visa somewhere?

If they want to become a citizen, they can stand in line, too.

Now, really, Mr. Bush. Don't you remember what you just said about putting food on their families' tables?

And here is where my opponent and I differ. In September 2003, he supported amnesty for illegal aliens.

Great answer, though it ended on a bad note. But I doubt that in the long run we can keep a large section of our society locked into an "illegal" second class status. Particularly if new immigrants are coming in with guest cards. Particularly since Bush is obviously sympathetic to immigrants, and in this debate, he was sounding like a softie from head to toe. He's got the last bit wrong, but I think he might come round.

SCHIEFFER: Time's up.

Senator?

KERRY: Let me just answer one part of the last question quickly, and then I'll come to immigration.

[Omit stupid cultivation of victim complex among the middle class...]

Now with respect to immigration reform, the president broke his promise on immigration reform. He said he would reform it. Four years later he is now promising another plan.

Here's what I'll do: Number one, the borders are more leaking today than they were before 9/11. The fact is, we haven't done what we need to do to toughen up our borders, and I will.

It sounds to me like Kerry is trying to outflank the president on the right on immigration. But I'm not sure yet.

Secondly, we need a guest-worker program, but if it's all we have, it's not going to solve the problem.

Glad there's agreement on the guest worker program.

The second thing we need is to crack down on illegal hiring. It's against the law in the United States to hire people illegally, and we ought to be enforcing that law properly.

An interesting distinction here. Bush seems to think employers have no choice but to hire illegals, and the only answer is to change the law so they're no longer illegal. Kerry likes force and fear.

And thirdly, we need an earned-legalization program for people who have been here for a long time, stayed out of trouble, got a job, paid their taxes, and their kids are American. We got to start moving them toward full citizenship, out of the shadows.

Good policy. I approve.

SCHIEFFER: Do you want to respond, Mr. President?

BUSH: Well, to say that the borders are not as protected as they were prior to September the 11th shows he doesn't know the borders. They're much better protected today than they were when I was the governor of Texas.

We have much more manpower and much more equipment there.

He just doesn't understand how the borders work, evidently, to say that. That is an outrageous claim.

And we'll continue to protect our borders. We're continuing to increase manpower and equipment.

SCHIEFFER: Senator?

KERRY: Four thousand people a day are coming across the border.

The fact is that we now have people from the Middle East, allegedly, coming across the border.

And we're not doing what we ought to do in terms of the technology. We have iris-identification technology. We have thumbprint, fingerprint technology today. We can know who the people are, that they're really the people they say they are when the cross the border.

We could speed it up. There are huge delays.

The fact is our borders are not as secure as they ought to be, and I'll make them secure.

My warmest welcome to the four thousand people who came across!

I would tap Bush as the liberal on immigration here.